Fostering Indigenous Excellence in STEM

In recognition of National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, how can we as a chemistry community ensure Indigenous students feel they truly belong and are supported in pursuing careers in academia?

In this episode of the EDII Catalyst, Dr. Alex Veinot (Assistant Professor, Department of Chemistry, Dalhousie University) joins us to share how his academic path began in rural Nova Scotia and shaped his commitment to Indigenous representation in STEM.

Hosted by Crudden group PhD candidates Dana Nanan and Mark Aloisio, this episode follows Dr. Veinot’s journey through early academic challenges, the importance of visibility for Indigenous scholars, and his efforts to foster inclusivity through community-driven scientific initiatives.

Transcript begins below video. 

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The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity. 

Today, we’re honoured to have Dr. Alex Veinot join us as today's esteemed guest, live all the way from Nova Scotia in his role of Assistant Professor in the Department of Chemistry at Dalhousie University.

To start us off, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Where are you from initially, and how did you get started in the field of chemistry?

I’m originally from Nova Scotia, and coming back to the province has been fantastic. I was born in a small town that nobody's heard of, Middleton; it has a population of just over 1500 people, so it’s a very small town. I'm coming from rural Nova Scotia—it's not exactly a town that produces academics or even chemists for that matter.

It's really quite an interesting story how I got into science and chemistry. For me personally, I didn't like school much. I didn't really do well in school. For the longest time, I was just often bored. I was the type of student in high school that would always be in detention—just the last one you would expect to be an academic. It was actually so bad that at one point my uncle who was an RCMP officer sat down and gave me the talk. He said, ‘you know, if you don't straighten up soon, it's going to be jail and whatnot,’ which is surprising for somebody in my position. But that was how I got interested in science; we were chatting and I asked him, ‘tell me a bit about your Kevlar vest.’ He described it as being a plastic stronger than steel. That was really what got me interested in chemistry to begin with, like how can you do that? How can you make a plastic—which, from what I had known at the time was shopping bags and stuff like that, right? Toys. How can you make something like that stronger than steel and able to stop a bullet? And that got me interested in my first chemistry course.

At the time, it was a real challenge to get into that type of class because I wasn't the best academic. I missed out on a lot of the coursework that I would have needed in high school because I was put into a co-op program designed to just push people like me through the school system. After a lot of hardship and arguments with the admin staff, they eventually let me take my first chemistry course, and I turned out to really love chemistry. For me, quantification of matter was what I really enjoyed early on; being able to calculate how many molecules of X are in this amount of material. I kept thinking to myself, ‘that seems so cool.’ I did really well at that. That's what kept me in chemistry in high school, which ultimately led to going to university.

Because of my past, I didn't have all the math I needed. So I ended up doing an extra year of high school to pick up my calculus and pre-calculus just to make it into university. It was a huge change; I went from being the kid that really hated school at one point to taking my first chemistry course, and then all of a sudden doing extra school work and going to university. Nobody could believe it. People now, when they see me, it's like they're shocked.

It's incredible that you went from struggles in Nova Scotia to becoming a Vanier Canada Graduate Scholar. Were there any other challenges you faced when you finally got to university? If so, how did you overcome them?

I faced challenges related being Indigenous. It was something I never thought much about early on. For me, I was the first person in my family to go off to university; neither of my parents had finished high school. They grew up in a different time when you could drop out of high school early and go off to vocational school and still be successful. I didn't have any familial background knowledge going to university, so I had to learn a lot of things on my own, which was quite challenging. I found that I really had to talk to the people that were in the know and ask as many questions as I could to figure things out for myself.

Being Indigenous, I also knew that being from a small rural part of the province in the country, you could be treated differently for making that fact known. As somebody that doesn't exactly look Native, I found it was actually quite easy to not say anything and hide my identity for a while. All throughout my time at Acadia, as an undergraduate student and even during grad school when I was a Master's student, I just didn't talk about being Indigenous. I didn't want it to be something that was associated with me. I wanted to just put it to the side and focus on doing my work.

As I got a little older, I recognized how important it was to make that known. I felt that if I made my status known, it would become a reason for people to judge me and treat me differently. Looking around, I didn’t see any of my peers represented. There are very few other Indigenous scholars out there. Without that background and that representation, it can be quite challenging to be the first one. There's always that need to prove that you belong somewhere and feel that you've earned your spot; without that representation, the pressure's very high.

Going through my studies, I felt a lot of that pressure and that need to perform well. Looking back, if I had more Indigenous representation and somebody to help me and say, ‘look, you don't need to try so hard,’ that would have been much better for my mental health and my happiness.

Thank you for sharing. As someone who champions indigeneity in STEM, you've been actively promoting STEM within Indigenous communities through outreach activities. Could you discuss any initiatives or programs that you’ve led or participated in?

I've been pretty involved trying to become the role model I wish I had when I was coming up through my studies. I’ve been trying to become visible for others and make it known that I'm Native and doing really well in science; I think that part's very, very important. In my own community, now that I'm back, I have a lot more opportunities to get involved with my community and try to increase representation.

Since being back, there have been a few youths that have expressed interest in getting demonstrations and attending little workshops. I'm looking forward to kicking some of that stuff off once I get established here and have set up my own space. You’ve got to take care of home first, right? So those are my plans for the future.

In terms of what I've been trying to do: I’ve really been trying to be present, be a good role model and help those that I can by being that person saying, ‘hey, it doesn't have to be so difficult. If you have questions, please ask and I’ll help to guide you as best I can.’ There have also been other aspects that I've become interested in, with funding obviously being a major aspect. A lot of the funding that goes into Indigenous academics doesn’t target science. It's not as heavily represented, which is a problem. A big thing I’ve reflected on is a lack of research opportunities for Indigenous people. For me, getting into a lab and getting hands-on experience was a critical part of my development as an academic.

Many Indigenous scholars are experiential learners, and they have to work hands-on. They're also lifelong learners, so they might not necessarily qualify for scholarships like NSERC; sometimes it’s because they don't have the grades, which are usually tied to some equity-related consequences. Sometimes they've got community ties or responsibilities that they have to be mindful of. I've been trying to push some of the local Indigenous groups here to provide increased access to funding for research opportunities for Indigenous scholars in science, because it's such an important step in getting the experience you need to go on to grad school. I think it's very important—it’s one of the first steps to increasing representation, which in turn is critical for encouraging more Indigenous representation in science.

From your perspective, what can we do as students and grad students currently in STEM to help promote the success of these Indigenous students beyond funding? Is there something we can do culturally or environmentally to help that, and are there any specific actions or initiatives you believe would be particularly effective?

It's going to be different for everybody, but for me, having that representation was key. For the longest time, I was the only Indigenous scholar I knew in chemistry. It wasn't until my fourth year of my PhD that I met anyone else in chemistry that was Indigenous. For me, representation has always been the critical factor. If you've got more people standing up and saying, ‘I belong to this group and I'm doing science,’ it makes it more comfortable for more people to step forward that are also part of that group. There's a safety in doing so.

I didn't really want to talk about [being Indigenous] because there is so much stigma around it. For many years, it was never a good thing to be make it known that you’re Native. We were treated as second class citizens. There are many people that just never acknowledged their status for many reasons.

Recently, I think it's become more acceptable to be Native. There's more pride in the identity now. For me, it's not like it's that far in the past—I did my undergrad ten years ago, and I still felt like I had to hide my identity. So only within the last few years has it become more acceptable to identify as being Native. I think with more people coming forward, there's going to be that greater sense of safety in making your status known, because I know there's a lot of people that were like me that don't really talk about it openly, and they don't want to have that associated with them because they might be treated differently. It's tough.

Earlier, you shared the sentiment, “I've got to take care of home.” As a new professor, what are some strategies you plan to incorporate into your current group that will foster inclusivity?

It's quite challenging to bring science to Indigenous communities, but I think I have an advantage in being a member of one of the local communities. Trying to bring more Indigenous people into science is always a challenge because you need to establish trust with those communities. It can be very difficult for somebody that's not part of the group already, or for somebody that's not associated with the group, to try and make any sort of change. The communities, if they don't trust you, they're not going to budge. Having that advantage, I'm really looking forward to trying to increase Indigenous representation in science through some of these outreach activities, talking to the community leaders, and trying to identify the specific needs of the communities to see what their priorities are.

My long-term goal is to help empower Indigenous communities with the knowledge and the means to conduct and direct their own science. It's quite difficult, but at least in my area, I've noticed my community taking a more proactive approach to scientific topics, especially those related to energy.  I'm a member of Glooscap First Nation, and we've recently established Glooscap Energy. They're starting to think about solar opportunities for energy and they're receiving government grants for putting in solar.

An absence I've noticed in a lot of the conversations is discussion about Life Cycle Analysis and asking, ‘what's the payoff?’ A lot of those discussions would really, really benefit from having scientific knowledge; they're coming at it with more of a business perspective, but I think having scientists at the table would be very important for these types of initiatives. That's why I think we need to increase that representation. Talking to the communities, trying to see what the priorities are, and just meeting the needs of the communities—that’s what I'm going to look at moving forward.

Dr. Veinot, we’re glad to hear you're in a position to push forward those initiatives. We hope to see more Indigenous representation across higher-level academic positions in the future. You've shared some great advice and insights learned from your own personal experience.

Before we turn to audience questions, are there any final messages or key takeaways you'd like to leave for our listeners?

Don't be discouraged when things are tough. I keep telling people here, as somebody that's come up through: it's hard. Chemistry is hard, and it's okay that it's hard. What we do is intrinsically hard. You tell people all the time when they ask, ‘what do you do?’ ‘Oh, I'm a chemist.’ There's always the groan of, ‘oh, I hated that in high school.’ So, when things get hard, don't feel bad. It's hard for everybody. Just stick with it. Ask lots of questions. Try to learn as much as you can. Over time, it'll come to you. And then you'll look back and see just how far you've come through your journey with chemistry and how rewarding it can be. That’s what I've gathered.

Audience Member: You’ve had the opportunity to experience higher-level education in two different provinces. Can you comment on how your experiences differed between provinces in terms of support?

For me, coming from a rural part of the country, it was always a challenge to make the transition to a bigger city. I was very conscious of location when going to school. I planned for my first step to be Acadia University, because Wolfville, Nova Scotia is still quite a small town, capping out around 10,000 people when the university is full. Most of that number is university students. It's very small, very rural. I needed to take that time and adjust from rural life to city life. I wanted to focus on learning the university setting and adjusting to being on my own. That was why I chose to go to Acadia—it was to figure out first how to be on my own and navigate university.

From there, I recognized I need to be comfortable with living in the city, because most universities are in cities. For my Master's, I stayed within the province because I had the safety net of my family, my community. I went to Halifax because it's a city, bigger than I was used to, and I could start adjusting to living in a city. I thought, ‘okay, this is fine. Now I’ve got the city aspect down, but I'm still in the safety net of having the people I know nearby in case things go bad.’

Moving to Kingston, I saw it as a city, but not that big of a city. It's certainly no Toronto, which seemed terrifying to me. Kingston isn’t as big as some other places like London, but it's big enough and it tested my comfort with being out of province. The safety net was gone. I was on my own. I adjusted to being more independent at that stage.

Finally, I worked my way up to London, Ontario. It was a bigger city, still without the safety net. That was my progression. I found that very effective for me personally, just making those gradual transitions. Some of my peers that were with me at Acadia, they made that big jump going from a small town in Nova Scotia to a school like the University of Alberta. And then they had a lot of difficulties adjusting because the change was just too much all at once. I think for me, that gradual adjustment was one of the factors to my success in terms of support.

I had some fantastic support, partially because I had some really good groups coming up through my academic path. I had very supportive mentors and very good research groups to fall back on when things were tough and I had questions. I think that was also another factor to a lot of my success—just getting lucky with the right groups.

Audience Member: Do you have any advice on how we can better encourage more Indigenous students to take the leap that you've made? What can individuals outside of Indigenous communities do to support Indigenous students?

I think making our culture visible is one aspect of it, and I say that knowing it's certainly easier to include more cultural aspects in the arts and humanities than chemistry. But I think there are some aspects of science that we could do a better job of indigenizing. As an inorganic chemist, it's very difficult for me to answer that question because there's not a lot of relation between Indigenous values and inorganic chemistry. The closest I've been able to find, at least personally, is identifying some of the pigments that were used in a lot of the ceremonial artifacts and clothing. In the past, you would use iron oxides and things like that; with that line of investigation, you could introduce iron oxides and some of the ceremonial aspects of Indigenous people. Beyond that, it's very difficult; the organic chemists, they’ve got it easy, right? There's all the natural products you can talk about, all sorts of Indigenous medicine.

At this level of academia, there are a few things I see happening which I don't particularly like. I try not to identify myself as an Indigenous scholar as much anymore because I don't think it's that valuable to scientific conversation. It just creates a juxtaposition of Indigenous knowledge versus Western knowledge, which puts two different rankings on the knowledge when in reality, knowledge is knowledge and there shouldn't be any distinction. It’s the same with ‘Indigenous science versus science’—it's all science.

The fact that I'm Indigenous doing science shouldn't make it any different than somebody else is doing science. Indigenous traditional knowledge wasn't peer reviewed with the same process you would follow when submitting research to a journal, but it was still peer reviewed. It's just the peers are different: the peers were other members of the community. The fact that a lot of the same stuff is passed down from generation to generation, that's proof of the peer review; you're using something that your peers have already used for centuries. It's just not published.

When you find those distinctions, it becomes really obvious that there shouldn't be that separation of ‘Indigenous knowledge versus Western knowledge’. There shouldn't be ‘Indigenous science’—that's just science. I think having the two separate instills that barrier and insists there’s still a tier between the two. I think if we can avoid that making that distinction, we’ll make a few steps forward.

Audience Member: I love how you said that—knowledge is knowledge, it should not be tiered. How would you recommend others overcome the cultural knowledge gap and engage with Indigenous students while avoiding performativity? What are things to avoid, or things that would be appreciated?

In terms of what not to do: I've noticed that many universities are trying to meet hiring quotas; everyone's after Indigenous scholars right now. I was being approached by universities out west to apply and fill these positions. The way I personally see it is that if you want to strengthen ties to your local communities, you need to hire people that are from those communities.

For me or anybody else that's not a member of those local communities to go in and try to establish those relationships, it's no different than anyone else, right? Again, it comes back to this level of trust. You want Indigenous peoples to trust the universities. To establish that trust, they need to see their people at the table, not just anyone that checks an Indigenous box.

I'm also very fortunate in my current role. Being Mi'kmaq, I’m returning to Nova Scotia, and I can work with Mi'kmaq communities. I think that’s very, very powerful. My advice to individuals on these hiring committees is ‘be reflective.’ Don’t just focus on checking the Indigenous box, but also on being mindful of the communities in the area. If your goal is to establish connections with the communities, you need to bring on people of those communities to first bridge the gap.

Audience Member: Having had an academic career that has brought you to the point where you're now a professor, I wanted to ask: what lesson did you learn through your graduate experience that you wish you would have learned a little bit earlier? If you were to go back to yourself at the beginning of your graduate experience and give yourself some knowledge, what would you want to convey?

I would want to tell myself, ‘you belong.’ I did my Master’s with Dr. Jason Masuda and he was fantastic—I really enjoyed my time working with Jason. When I tell people the horror stories of how much I worked during my Master’s, everyone says, ‘oh, Jason must have worked you hard.’ And I’m always like, ‘no, no, Jason was fantastic.’ He's the friendliest person, anyone will meet. The reason why I worked 20-hour days during my Master’s was the pressure of feeling like I had to earn my spot because I didn't know any other Indigenous people in chemistry. I didn’t even know Indigenous people in science. There wasn't that sort of representation to made me feel like I belonged.

I constantly felt like I had to work to earn my seat. Looking back, it was silly. But in the moment, I felt a pressure to feel like I had earned my spot because it's university, it's prestigious. I was a first-generation scholar, right? Looking back, I wouldn't do that again. That was my biggest takeaway.

When I mentor students now, I try to make it very clear that they don't have to work like that. They don't have to try to earn their spot. Everyone is welcome and everyone struggles. Everyone needs help, and that’s okay.

Thank you to Dr. Alex Veinot for joining us today and for sharing in this important discussion. Thank you so much to our audience for listening in on today's episode. We hope to see you all back.